Rogue Ideas

[TheImpossibleDream]

First step in making rogues viable is to allow corner-sneaking. I wouldn't even consider making a rogue-heavy PC before that was done.

The rule regarding tis was mentioned earlier, you can corner sneak once to disengage (if you intend to stay disengaged and not just shoot, corner sneak, shoot, corner sneak)
 
Besides the obvious reasons for this change theres also the fact that in D&D if you run a round a corner and stealth without hide in plain sight you are still considered "detected" unlike in nwn where you just instantly gain hips and vanish.

You can also use darkness/invisibility and stealth/get sneak attacks repeatedly.

Little scripted perks for rogue are nice and all, but really, I'd rather just have them stay the way they are and let the DM's reward particularly good pure rogues with particularly good rogue loot when they rock out. Could be worse, they could be sorcerers.

[Barehander]

I don't see the "obvious reasons" for the change. Running saround a corner, coming back to shoot and running again are exactly what rogues are all about. Why on earth would anyone want to ban their primary tactic? Rogues take some skill and reflexes to play, but they can be one of the toughest PvP classes. Not only should guerilla warfare like that be allowed, it should be expected.

If Darkness was changed back, I reckon that too should be mentioned in the Mechanics Changes page/thread. I've been playing two months and steering clear of rogue for that reason, among others.

[Letsplayforfun]

Could be worse, they could be sorcerers.

LOL. Yeah, tweeking classes should certainly not begin with rogues.

Pure rogue is sweet if you play it like the support class it is. Don't make a pure rogue and act like a fighter, that's for sure.

But hecks: they usually don't melee (so little harm), they evade, they sneak (meaning they can travel easily too), they UMD, they can melee fight if it come to it, they sneak attack lots of stuff (+2d6 easily avaible), they have huge variety of skills (including social skills which help a lot on DM quests), they can set traps (pvp friendly), ...

Aside from clerics, maybe bards, i don't see another class that is as versatile.

[Equinox]

Aside from clerics, maybe bards, i don't see another class that is as versatile.

Ranger imo.

However pure rogues can be sweet. But I personally wouldnt mind seeing maybe an extra feat or something at level 7/8.

And sorcs have the potential now to be one of the strongest classes on the server. Bloodmage is rediculously powerful.

[TheImpossibleDream]

I don't see the "obvious reasons" for the change. Running saround a corner, coming back to shoot and running again are exactly what rogues are all about. Why on earth would anyone want to ban their primary tactic? Rogues take some skill and reflexes to play, but they can be one of the toughest PvP classes. Not only should guerilla warfare like that be allowed, it should be expected.

A player with 200 spot and 200 listen could easily be corner sneaked by a rogue with 10 hide and 10 move silent through the art of corner sneaking the way its handled in nwn. Thats why.

[Barehander]

If that's what you wish to counter, you should stick to countering that only: enforce a one-round cooldown you have to stay in Stealth before you can attack again, for example. You couldn't mechanically enforce that, but so you can't enforce not corner-sneaking either.

The real problem, of course, is that SA works on ranged weapons.

But you have to be a pretty damn stupic PC with 200 Spot/Listen if you refuse to go out of the minimal Sneak Attack range or run to the corner and force a confrontation, tbh. It's not a balance issue, and it hasn't been on any other NWN server I've played, either.

[Howlando]

This thread[ may explain some of the concerns.

It has come up as an issue for us, though. I can think of specific examples.

 I don't mind the idea of a rogue being a guerilla badass and I still think it's very doable to do but "corner sneaking" can simply be abused and -has- been abused.

An opponent can be chasing you down just a few paces behind but with corner sneaking you can STILL get away, regardless of the opponent's spot/listen scores. The engine simply doesn't handle it well.

We're starting to get off-topic, it goes without saying that rogues are very useful and can be played very effectively, for me though I'm interested in adding that extra level of EFU customization for every class so they're that much more special and interesting to play.

[TheImpossibleDream]

The nwn stealth system is godly as is compared to the stealth system it was based on. When you run around a corner even while "heard" you still vanish even though your target should still be able to hear you. Listen checks are negated.

As for "not a balance issue" it's quite possible to make yourself impossible to attack if you position yourself correctly even in a wide open space in efu as small hills effectively block line of sight in some areas.

The places it is possible to corner sneak are everywhere. It would be physically impossible to engage a rogue in combat if the corner exploit was allowed. It is considered an exploit due to the fact that it negates certain detection skills completely.

[Barehander]

There's a difference between legit use and obvious exploiting, though. Seems pretty strange to be so anal about something that is only abusable in specific instances that can be further specified and banned in themselves. Kind of like using Restoration to get rid of item-given ability penalties: it's obviously an exploit, but not all use of Restoration is an exploit. It could very well be narrowed down.

I know stealth breaks combat and you don't get to roll Detect immediately. That's why there should rather be a cooldown (like many servers have introduced for HiPS, either mechanically or rules-wise) than a ban. But yeah, we're getting off-topic. But it really is the reason I ditched all my rogue bans when I found out about the rule.

That said, I don't think rogues really need combat buffs. Rogues are a strong but tactics-heavy class to play. More opportunities to use their special skills would be wonderful.

A new Disguise skill partially based on Bluff, Persuade and Rogue/Bard levels would be rad, for example.