True Seeing on Summons

[Caddies]

I'm putting this in bug reports instead of suggestions because I assume that wizards with certain themes having access to permanent true seeing through the application of a mere Lesser Planar Binding spell is assuredly an oversight.

An easy fix would be removing it from the L3 summons altogether. Then if it's deemed, for reasons I'll personally never understand, desirable for wizards to have access to summons with this particular ability, then perhaps it can be added to much higher level summons instead.

[Pigadig]

Do they have True Seeing, or is it simply Blindsight? One is more powerful than the other after all.

[Johannes]

As blindsight on certain summoned creatures has been a well-established feature of EFU for many years now, I  think that this would be more appropriate in the suggestions forum.

[Valo56]

Blindsight is more powerful on EfU. Though it does not see through sanctuary, it does see around walls, I believe. True Seeing does not see around walls.

These summons have blindsight, I believe so that they cannot spot scrying mages. If possible, having Planar Binding summon a unique version of each summon theme rather than just a basic Level 3 would be pretty awesome, and you could just not add blindsight for most of them (something like oozes or plants should always have blindsight).

[VanillaPudding]

Blindsight, 60 feet (which is on the monsters that have the feat) is only slightly less than the AOE of a Colossal spell effect. A human character on your screen represents 2 meters, or 6.6 feet.That means that the range of this blindsight is slightly greater than the distance of 9 human character models stacked on top of one another. I do not find that to be very limited myself.

Summoning themes should be interesting and unique, not completely nullify one of the few weaknesses a Wizard might suffer on EFU. C/C is already greatly buffed with divination focus for example, and I do not think that any Wizard needs to have readily available 24 hour duration summons that detect stealth.

In fact, I recall the Ooze theme having these things removed, and furthermore the (much less effective) polymorph self spell having it removed because it was deemed overpowered. I don't believe that already powerful summons require this in any form.

[Johannes]

For the sake of clarity, all summons of the ooze theme still have blindsight.

You'll find that powerful summoning themes with blindsight, including the ooze theme, which feature blindsight are not generally obtainable as permanent summoning themes without a DM's conscious intervention in granting them.

[Caddies]

As blindsight on certain summoned creatures has been a well-established feature of EFU for many years now, I  think that this would be more appropriate in the suggestions forum.

Yes, but summoning a level three summon for 24 hours with planar binding hasn't been around for years. I'm against wizards (stealthed PCs being their only real weakness) having permanent access to automatic stealth detection, and as a DM, I assumed you would be too given this is a glaring balance concern (and thus why I thought it was a bug).

[Johannes]

I'm grateful that you've raised this for discussion, Caddies. It is clear that it is a subject that you believe in very passionately, and I definitely take that seriously. I am eager to facilitate an animated and productive discussion on the subject, but I hope that you will consider toning back the counter-productively angry tone of your posts which is sabotaging your case.

[Valo56]

While we're on the subject, somewhat off-topic, Greater Syndrasil Roots do not have blindsight, while lesser roots do. The roots (along with Illusory Doom Knights) also have knockdown and improved knockdown, but only use the former.

Perhaps intentional for balance reasons, but while on the subject, figured I'd mention it.

[Caddies]

I'm grateful that you've raised this for discussion, Caddies. It is clear that it is a subject that you believe in very passionately, and I definitely take that seriously. I am eager to facilitate an animated and productive discussion on the subject, but I hope that you will consider toning back the counter-productively angry tone of your posts which is sabotaging your case.

Haven't got the time/interest to be smarmy, I'll stick with blunt.

[Gippy]

It is something that should be looked at -- however, you overestimate how good it is. Unless the player's running around with a pack of level 3-4-5 summons and everyone hostile they can still be ambushed just by the practical limitations of hostiling at the right time. While this may seem ooc, the summons assuredly are not told by the wizard to go on rampage mode and crush everything that is hiding around them ally or otherwise.

[HungeringShadows]

It is something that should be looked at -- however, you overestimate how good it is. Unless the player's running around with a pack of level 3-4-5 summons and everyone hostile they can still be ambushed just by the practical limitations of hostiling at the right time. While this may seem ooc, the summons assuredly are not told by the wizard to go on rampage mode and crush everything that is hiding around them ally or otherwise.

Frequent use of /c hostile all as a wizard will remedy this very easily.

[Caddies]

It is something that should be looked at -- however, you overestimate how good it is. Unless the player's running around with a pack of level 3-4-5 summons and everyone hostile they can still be ambushed just by the practical limitations of hostiling at the right time. While this may seem ooc, the summons assuredly are not told by the wizard to go on rampage mode and crush everything that is hiding around them ally or otherwise.

Summons aren't the crux of the issue, its having them 24/7 through lesser planar binding. Wizards with permanent stealth auto-detection are completely unbalanced.

[Johannes]

The mainstream availability of blindsight on stable summons is definitely a concern, and this is being removed from the mainstream light and plant themes which feature it.

It has also been removed from Hook Horror Hive Defenders and their hatchlings, for whom the blindsight feat is thematically unusual.

Other themes with blindsight on them are handed out as DM loot, and are available as an incentive for proactivity (although the ooze theme has historically been granted via application. I think that it's fair to discuss revising this policy). The DM loot that any individual PC is deemed to merit, including non-mainstream summoning themes, does not come into any general discussions about balance.

If there are further issues with mainstream summoning themes with blindsight, we would appreciate players bringing them up.

[Big Orc Man]

I'm in agreement with Caddies that giving wizards what amounts to permanent vision through stealth is a bit unfair to those stealth classes who should theoretically excel against wizards.