True Seeing on Summons

[Gotham]

Thematically however, magic is about surmounting physical limitation via magic. If a wizard survives long enough and overcomes enough hardship to achieve such DM loot, don't they have a right to the benefits? Isn't it also a bit classless to complain about it on the forums because you failed to stealth gank someone?

This should probably go to DM discussion or a private DM Q/A between Caddies and the DM team so peanut gallery patrons like myself can't sit in the cheap seats and hoot like drunken monkeys.

[Big Orc Man]

This is a valid topic for discussion, and all players are welcome to contribute.

A "stealth gank" is really the only way to defeat a wizard, as a prepared wizard should by all means win unless he's against insurmountable odds.

The classic triangle of wizard beats fighter beats rogue beats wizard isn't a bad thing!

[Gotham]

Isn't there always the classic haste run up and spam knockdown till his dead with 3-6 of your friends?

[Porkolt]

No because concealment and summons.

[Gotham]

See invis defeats concealment doesn't it? Dispel removes buffs, Dismissal removes summons.

[Ruins Trekker]

See invisibility does not negate concealment effects.

[Voluminous Cloak]

No. See Invis does not counter concealment.

[Caddies]

The mainstream availability of blindsight on stable summons is definitely a concern, and this is being removed from the mainstream light and plant themes which feature it.

It has also been removed from Hook Horror Hive Defenders and their hatchlings, for whom the blindsight feat is thematically unusual.

Other themes with blindsight on them are handed out as DM loot, and are available as an incentive for proactivity (although the ooze theme has historically been granted via application. I think that it's fair to discuss revising this policy). The DM loot that any individual PC is deemed to merit, including non-mainstream summoning themes, does not come into any general discussions about balance.

If there are further issues with mainstream summoning themes with blindsight, we would appreciate players bringing them up.

You're addressing issues I didn't bring up, either out of confusion about the original point or as a method of subterfuge.

The specific issue, the -actual- (and obvious) source of the post, is wizards having permanent autodetection of stealth through the use of Lesser Planar Binding, even with DM loot. This is an undeniable balance problem which needs a quick fix, and has many easy solutions.

Assuming that balance concerns -even those which stem from DM-administered perks to specific players- aren't inherently communal in nature, it's obvious that the issue wasn't being discussed internally, and  given I received no reply in IRC PMs, what other recourse is available?

I will be sure to make myself available on IRC around midday European time tomorrow if you want to discuss the issue; I for one would be interested to identify the reason for your hesitations.

[Gotham]

What about dismissals and dispels?

[Sea_and_Stars]

There's plenty of IC methods to combat the issue: Dispel, Dismissal, Turn Undead (if clerics can Turn Outsiders, too, generally via the right Domains), use summons or friends to draw away said mage's auto-attacking summons before stealth-ganking, etc.

[Big Orc Man]

Can no one keep a legitimate suggestion discussion civil?

What's the matter with you?

Agree or disagree, it's not a crazy thing to suggest.

Maybe focus on what you think would be best for EFU, rather than attacking people.

[Ghosticus]

Negh. Sounds to me like Caddies just wants to be able to gank the way he wants, instead of making an -IN CHARACTER- effort to win via other methods than stealth-gank. Honestly? I'd say he doesn't care about other solutions because he's OOCly focused on having his own way.

However, if I'm wrong, then I apologize, and there's plenty of IC methods to combat the issue: Dispel, Dismissal, Turn Undead (if clerics can Turn Outsiders, too, generally via the right Domains), use summons or friends to draw away said mage's auto-attacking summons before stealth-ganking, etc.

I find this discussion a healthy criticism and review of mechanics that may or may not be balanced. However, assumptions of intentions based on nothing may turn this away from something good, for all players, to something hurtful, and direct attention from the main topic.

I have nothing to add to the topic on hand, but as one player - who finds this discourse helpful and interesting - to another, please keep it impersonal and constructive. The last thing we need is venom and ad hominem spoiling an otherwise fine discussion.

[Sea_and_Stars]

Ah, you're right. I'd brought over an IRC discussion on it into the forums. I'll edit the above post for nicety's sake.

Sorry about that, Caddies.

[Caddies]

I've already been lectured to in the thread about not having any class in bringing this issue up, because it was assumed I failed to stealthgank someone despite not playing in months. I'm sure whatever conclusions cooked up in IRC by the EFU airmchair general staff are equally as amusing. No need to apologize!

Back onto topic, the point you seem to miss Sea and Stars, is that all of  those methods you listed (Dispel, Dismissal, etc.) alert the wizard,  elminating absolute intiative (usually required to kill a high level  wizard in the hands of a good player), and none of them can be done  without breaking stealth. The balance issue at hand, I think, is that  wizards with this perk go from being the hardest class to kill to being  literally ungankable - a fundamental balance concern, in my opinion.

[noobliette]

I also find it surprising when this issues are addressed in language that is often aggressive or needlessly adversarial.

Blindsight is a very powerful feat, and when it comes to permanent summons I agree it can be problematic. Theoretically though, it is most often used in EfU for what in PnP would be blindsight granted through hearing and sensing vibrations.

As a productive suggestion, perhaps it would make sense for the lower-level summons of these themes to have a very high boost to Listen rather than Blindsight? I tend to think that a Rogue with a very high Move Silently should be able to tread so lightly so as not to cause much of a tremor on the ground, if at all. This also works in the case of someone under invisibility, since the engine detects them based on Listen skill (and it is only us as players that roleplay not knowing exactly the location of the noise). I am not certain as to the radius at which Listen detection of invisibility functions though, so the idea may fall down there.

Higher level summons of these themes should continue to have Blindsight, whether they are permanent summons or not IMO.