What does EFU community think of religious characters

[Jubek]

How much interested are you in religious characters?

This is something I've been wondering, and while I can guess a few things from my personal observations and experiences, by taking the time to truly ask the question and ponder, I'll learn much more.

Two things to clarify, first.
(1) This has nothing to do with my unsuccessful attempt to raise a yemanite cult. This is not something that caught the interest of players, and it's fine like that. I won't be angry after someone because he doesn't has the same tastes in roleplay as me...!
(2) This has nothing to do with House Nephezar, or the Lord Departed. I have no hard feelings against their current dominance IG, and a religion backed by a noble house is a totally different matter.

No, I'm asking because religions are scarcely represented IG. Now, we cannot say that half the server play clerics, of course. Not even 1/10. They are very few, and I don't have anything against that. However, I get the impression that the setting seem to be mostly atheist. You rarely see anyone make any reference to any deity, and a lot of characters are ignorant of which deity represents what. And we're not talking about those who literally know nothing about gods. Also, representations of various clergies are quite uncommon : I'd say it mostly gravitates towards either the eight-faced god, or the sun gods. Most others are a rare sight.

Now, people could tell me how it goes in waves, and it wasn't always like that...I'm aware of that, I've owned this game for nearly 20 years. I haven't played it all the time, but enough to see how things go. No, I'd like to know right now, how people feel about the various faiths :
-Do they have some sort of indifference towards them?
-Do they feel religious types are restricting for them? Like a suffocating kind of roleplay?
-Do they feel lost in the wide possibilities in front of them, and rather not get involved?
-Does the fact that there's so much territory to improvise on questions of dogma, an obstacle? (It is either a blessing or a curse, it is just a matter of preference)

And many other possibilities. I just want to have a little chat from players behind their characters, and generally, how they feel about this.

Personally, I believe, and feel like there is an incredible potential with religions. It is not only a matter of belief, but there's a whole cultural aspect behind it. As a roleplaying perspective, this is something that naturally adds -a lot- to any character, if you carefully take time to consider how to integrate this into them. As someone who has travelled IRL and like foreign cultures, religion and culture are closely linked together, and it is an easy way to learn more about a people. So, IG, an easy, yet rich way to create variety and nuances between characters.

The fact that EFU faiths are so briefly described gives it a unique twist : You have to give your own interpretation of it. Because, let's face it, you won't have the same depth of roleplay if you just keep it to two lines. I know what I'm talking about, I've roleplayed one for two months, and now that I have a lot of lore to base myself upon (Reshagan), I feel like what I have to offer with my character has improved -so, much-. You make some points clear, and no longer risk to drift away, or be vague on them. Improvisation is just what it is, it gives something different each time. Also, by writing it down, you no longer have to concentrate to remember it, so you can just use that energy to build something else.

So, I'm curious : It is a general matter of taste from players? Apprehensiveness? Lack of information? Tell me more, all of this is simply a desire to know the community better.

[Random_White_Guy]

Personally speaking I feel it goes towards two factors: an disinterest to RP the polytheism that EFU has always tried to promote and people making a religion a foundational part of their PC's concept.

In terms of polytheism there's often a big push for PCs to support their faith but only their faith, which to a degree makes sense for Clerics but with so many gods of so many types EFU has long tried to play up different faiths having different roles in the lives of people. For instance I could completely see a PC of El the Sprinting Lord leaving out some pumpkins to ward away ill spirits and etc. The Nine Faced God's faith of course is different in that regard but I always just feel people take a very modern/RL view of religion and carry it with them IG. The Sun Gods being allies I feel could be a cool bridge to fix that, or numerous clerics of the nine faced god working in tandem, but in reality that's a lot of PCs for a lot of faiths and we usually don't have all that many clerics active at one time.

The second, and in my opinion more annoying matter, is PCs who create a PC with a religion at start up but never mention their god IG will sooner die than convert to a faith, which always perplexed me.

Attempting to convert a PC from their created faith has at times been met with "NO I SERVE X", which has little IC implications for their character in most instances, however they will outright betray an association or faction they have joined if it feels it suits them which has Massive IC implications and at times death and otherwise from their former allies. It creates this weird feeling that a PC cleric is screaming into a void and PCs would sooner cut off their nose to spite their face in terms of PC associations but never consider betraying a faith which they do not do much with IG.

While I always prefer IC recruitment and the organic flow of EFU and things happening naturally in the case of clerical characters and heavy religious RP the best advice I can give is either newer players considering contacting a prominent religious character OOC or in discord about helping out in the religious movement or cultivating some OOC contacts to help roll a religious concept together in the OOC recruitment thread or DIscord.

If you hit the server with 2-3 religious PCs all working together (Cleric/Paladin/Sorc or etc all of one "Shrine") it can give a firmer "baseline" and you can survive and do religious activities and always have an audience for events and draw other PCs to that core nexus of a religious group. Entering the world cold as a solo Cleric can be a daunting, and frankly at time dispiriting activity as PCs just blast past your sermons or go "Oh isn't that precious" and wander off to their next activity. Having a few PCs in pocket so to speak can help with that.

[Random_White_Guy]

Also personally I think only Clerics should be able to have Religions of the Small Gods and awoken/born of the City PCs would have to seek them out to cultivate their faith and get involved in religious activities and etc.

I get having NPCs of Pitter Peter and etc are all important to have for the sake of selling Relics but I wish it was more like Associations. Having an NPC ask "Have you spoken with a PC of this faith" and requiring someone of the same faith in vicinity, etc.

I think it'd add a lot more to clerical RP and PCs investing further in PC efforts of faith even if it is just "Hey I've heard about this faith can you tell me more?" before they never pay visit the temple again, but at least the PC has some interaction with conversion and some feeling of religious accomplishment as PCs come to sign up to their cause.

[SunrypeSlim]

You can steal moments of true open-ended discourse from amidst the hardships of this 'life'. But for many people who are merely living, God is not on the forefront of their mind. That it is for Clerics, Paladins, etc. is the cost and the reward. For the rest of the characters in the setting, it may very well be that faith is not the intrinsic benefit it was in the Forgotten Realms.

Have a couple modes: quest mode, idle mode, preach mode. Think about how long you'll have to really "get into it", and then try and tailor your messages to that. One-liners > sermons, imho. In that way, your religious character stays grounded to the "reality" of the people around them.

[Jubek]

@SunrypeSlim

I thank you for you input. I just want to specify that this topic is what I said it is, and there are no hidden messages behind it : I am curious to see people's opinions and feelings concerning religious characters, it is not a call for help. I don't say that to put down what you've said,  I appreciate it. I just wouldn't want to see this discussion transform into "Let's give tips to Jubek", because this is neither the intended direction, nor what I want. I'll get back to your suggestions later.

Since the topic is so young, I'll wait a little longer for more opinions to show up before answering. I like to sit quietly and observe in depth people's opinions, from time to time. ;)

[Kiaring]

Clerics, more than any class in my opinion, depend on other PCs. Despite being so powerful, and capable of performing loads of tasks on their own / fill a lot of roles, they need to build followings. I'd say that's what makes them the most demanding class in terms of RP. That being said, the server is very open to what your interpretation of 'following a faith' is, and I feel it is also open in giving us a good amount of decently different faiths to choose from, and also allows for new faiths to emerge, even from PC roots.

The catalyst to all of these processes is always, always, PC involvement. It can feel helpless, when you feel like, from the entire character list during your timezone, you've already interacted with everyone / have no hope of converting anyone. But conversion is only the end of the story. It often starts with a talk. Even if you feel like you've already dealt with that character, your own character isn't static - they can explore new ideas/avenues, which include not only direct conversion - investigate why character X is so resistant to the religious ideas you've attempted to discuss / propagate, propose different types of activities to character Y,  new opportunities to get inside their head and perhaps have a chance at a more meaningful conversation,  instead of inviting people to your sermon, invite them to a different type of activity, one that might engage them in different ways than simple text-to-text interaction.

It can be (and is) very hard. But, from the little I've seen of Desir, I always found her very dedicated, and a stark example of Yemanzi faith. All it takes for you to go from feeling like your efforts are futile (or something similar to that) to feeling elated at your own success, is one character. The adage I've heard applied to religion in the real world, that the "first follower is the one that makes you go from 'mad person' to 'prophet'" is very true on EfU.  Some times, we see some awesome clerics, that seem like they're just waiting for a group of followers to join them - it might take a while, but when it happens, it is the most awesome thing.

If you want my two cents (very uninformed opinion, like I said I haven't interacted so much with your PC) you're doing a lot of cool stuff, you're one of the few people I've seen openly opposing the current push for a more 'homogenous' religion, from a standpoint of reason / religious freedom, which I think is hugely important.

[SunrypeSlim]

@Jubek

I apologize for the unwarranted advice. I've sent you a PM with a proper response to your four points.

[SN]

I think the biggest hurdle here is that once people create a PC and put some random deity in the deity field (Tymora, Torm, Tempus whatever, or any of the small faiths of the city) and once they do, it's set in stone no matter what happens, even if - as RWG said - they maybe emote once every week or so something along the lines "Torm bless" and that's it ; - ) Or they simply don't care (this is not directed at anyone in particular, I fall victim to this trap too).

But yeah, RWG summed it up pretty nicely - most of the population of the city is/should be in theory, politheistic, but alas, it isn't.

At the same time, I've seen some pretty spectacular conversions through hardship and conversation together, so don't get discouraged!

.. Plus there's always a FORCED conversion, you know.

[SamB123]

I've learned (and I still consider myself new here) that the biggest thing about EFU is action. The biggest way to get folks involved in what you're doing is act in such a way that you become strong. You might need to crack a few heads, or kill a few folks.


Now, does it always have to be like that? No. Saibhon Dumein is a perfect example of a peaceful cleric. His actions were so peaceful that no one wanted to attack him.

[SN]

Saibhon Dumein was a staple of what a cleric should be !
Make. Him. Stop. Talking!

[Richørd]

During my time on EfU I have met religious characters of both kinds, fantastic and horrible. Those I wanted to interact with just to see what their players would come up with in response and others that I have learned to avoid like the plague.

Fantastic clerics and religious characters are those who stick to their ideals and truly prefer the word over the sword. Maxwell Artfall and Saibhon Dumein have been my top two favorites so far.
Both PCs were exemplary long-running characters that had downfalls and successes, made their religions feel more alive and always had a presence even without pressing themselves into the prime light.
Both of them were always open for dialogue, for RP and for an exchange of ideas instead of dice rolls.

Now on the other hand there are horrible examples of religious figures.
(This is just my opinion, so I feel sorry if you feel called out and outraged but please understand that I am being ultra-vague here to exactly not have you feel called out. It is not my intent to call anyone out with this.)
They are the type of PCs that justify FDing other characters with reasons, that come off as made-up-on-the-spot and absolutely hamfisted, based on their religion alone, often not even targetting those directly opposed to their faith. In my perception the same people, instead of just playing their PC and continuing to exist as a living, breathing part of the world and adding to the immersion until a proper enemy shows up, would often create their own enemies with force.
Even when met with opposition, clerics should not immediately escalate things to FD. I know PvP hounds and FD hungry players are a part of the EfU community just like me and others and their choice of weekly /c yank_pack and /c subdual FD inputs are their own to make and totally legitimate playstyles, even more so since FD happy zealots often receive plenty of DM support to help them on their warpath, legitimizing them even further ... but for me personally it just sours whatever religion they represent and I'd rather stick with normy adventuring Joe Schmoe and avoid having to deal with Fanatic Mc Killyoulots who believes that anyone with a fat backpack and who doesn´t entirely align with their god deserves to die all the sudden.
Plus those characters often tend to disappear with no real pay-off.


So to answer the OP's questions more directly ...
1. There´s the good, the bad and the ugly. Religious characters need one thing the most, which is persistence.
2. No, I imagine choosing to be a religious character in the first place is more restricting than having to interact with one.
3. More variety in religion is just more of a chance to have amazing examples of PCs.
4. Again, Maxwell Artfall was an amazing example of a PC and he managed to be a believable and legit faithful of the Nine Faced even though the entire faith is so god damn vague, with lots of room for improvisation. He put so much work into that faith, both IC and OOC, that it managed to go from being a jumbled mess to a religion that I´d be able to see implemented into nearly-any fantasy setting.

[Egon the Monkey]

*cracks knuckles*

Why RPG Religions Can Be Awesome And Your PC Should Have One
I love religion in roleplaying games, because it gives your PC:

• A set of principles
• Some reasons to not compromise on them. 
• Rites and traditions you can hang your roleplay off.
• Excuses to toot your horn on behalf of other PCs who are Doing Good Things (According to your religion).
• Excuses to help other PCs who come to you and say Can Your God Help with This. With intangible things like "making a hard decision" or "courage" rather than "A tragic lack of Clarity Potions".
• A sense of community with other PCs who will also subscribe to the same things.

In the absence of principles, all you have is identity. And that leads to the view I've seen described on #main as "pick a faction, it doesn't matter, it's like choosing a coloured straw at a restaurant". It means that the dogma of a given Small God is whatever the Cleric of the week claims it is. You can't declare a fellow cleric to be unorthodox, or have a schism over a point of principle. Because most of the Small Gods don't have any principles. At most, people tend to think they need to ask for Insert Generic Praise, Receive Buffz. Massive props to LiAlH4 for pulling off a schism. The Renunciation is one of the few faiths with enough canonical depth to it to have a proper heresy.

Possible reasons for low buy-in on religion
RwG, I think PCs are very loath to convert because in the absence of morals from a god or a definition of what that deity field MEANS, all you have is the label. So to Not Compromise and Stick To Your Guns, that deity field name can look important for its own sake. Whereas really, unless you're a cleric, it feels a lot more like saying what pantheonic deity or Saint your PC feels is relevant to them right now. I think that if we got a brief that people are traditionally fairly flexible on religion, we'd see more religion RP.  If it was explicitly okay to follow a new god if you don't have a priest to guide your current path, that would encourage saying YES to joining an interesting PC-led sect.

I saw CoR previously as a "Meh-theistic" setting. There were a bunch of little shrines, not really integrated into any social structure or government as there wasn't one. On average, we seemed to have more Small Gods than we had active clerics. As a lay follower, you probably didn't have any guidance as there wasn't a PC cleric to represent your god.

So, okay, it made sense that the average person would offer prayer to different gods in different circumstances. But they never felt important. Honestly, the King took the place of an interventionist god better than most Small Gods. He provides a set of rules, and you risk swift wrath from an unseen force if you break those rules. Whereas nobody's scared of offending Pitter Peter and finding themselves suffering a plague of rats.

Faiths To Make you Do Stuff
A lot of the small gods feel less like a source of meaning and rules to live your life by and more  like an explanation of Why I Have These Domains. The sun gods are a good example.

• The Promise is one of my top gods. It has a rite every day and a clear description of what they do (mourn and remember the sun) and why they do it (Because then the Sun comes back). It says they're good at smashing up undead. Although it doesn't say "And you should totally smash some undead, they are bad and the Sun hates them".
• Yeman is okay. It says BE PROUD AND FORTHRIGHT, DON'T BE MEEK. it's got a virtue and a sin. But then, meekness is kind of a weak sin as it encourages picking on quiet PCs not punching up at something tough.
• El has a giant blank. The description says "what priests can do" but not but not "why El wants them to do it" or "what El thinks is laudable/sinful behaviour". You can 'summon warm winds' but have no idea why El would like you to do this thing

Faiths To Make You Do the Right Thing Not The Easy Thing
Honestly, I think the paladin oaths are better religious dogma than the actual dogma. They contain several things you should do or promote, and several things you must not do. They mean that two paladins of the same Oath will have the same principles but can argue over their interpretation. Like any set of interpretable rules, they promote both cooperation and conflict.

Bear in mind that the "Right thing" doesn't mean the Good thing or the socially responsible thing. Just "Not doing a cop-out and take the self-serving route". I think that Evil and Neutral aligned gods need to in general be more principled than Good aligned ones. Because it means you don't get the most friendly cooperation between 'Team Outcast', and it means you have reasons to not just do what's best for you. It means you gain reasons to trust you because of your principles. But also that these principles can also be exploited to make you do stuff.

For example, imagine if Yevathax had "Utterly opposed to fiends and all their works" in its brief. Sure , it's a weird pumpkin zombie cult but it's got a redeeming feature. If you see a priest of that, you can find a common enemy. You have a temptation beyond "I get spells and loot".  And Yevathax is TBH one of the best gods as it has a very clear dogma of "Fighting undead is good and should be rewarded, also making undead is cool too". And that creation/destruction duality gives a cleric a lot to work with.

The best religion I saw was the Ancestors as it's very proactive. GAIN RENOWN, BE FAMOUS, REMEMBER THE ANCESTORS. And it's very personal. You can choose an Ancestor to emulate.  'What would This Dead Dwarf Do?' is a valid moral code that will encourage your PC to say yes to hard stuff and no to easy stuff.

The Future
I find the new tripartite Lord Departed/Lady in Waiting/Promise faith strange to have happened so fast as it's kind of like House Nephezar have committed heresy on themselves. It's certainly a schism-worthy thing to have jumped back a generation and pulled out a dogma you didn't subscribe to last week. What it does offer is the opportunity for internal religious conflict, which I find much more interesting than "My dad's bigger than your dad" style religious conflict between two servants of powers who each provably give exactly the same stuff to a cleric.

I do think it's likely to demoralise those players who didn't want to play outlaw PCs and now find they are suddenly lacking legitimacy. It wasn't like we were drowning in openly preaching and proactive clerics in the first place, and the concept space right now is crunched down into a much smaller area.

[Jubek]

I'm glad I've started this discussion, and I'm grateful to each and every one of you who shared his/her opinion.

My main concern with the topic is really on a general level. Many persons suggested courses of action to how to grow as a cleric character ; these are useful and might grow into something else in my mind as I let the ideas simmer. While my initiative to start a yemani cult might look as PC-centric, or a character personal goal, the fact is, it was never to do this so it may be of "benefit" to my character. Of course it would have been/will be. But I did this as it was a perfect opportunity to create an official movement of opposition to the new "oppressive" edicts. I pictured in my mind the possibility to see Ticker Square become the refuge for everything the ward pushes forward. To give the place more than a "capitalist/mercantile" attitude. A few rising religions, mixed with a patriotic movement, would have given more nuances to a place many wishes would outgrow the "we're here to make money" ideology.
But people didn't feel interpelled. And I do not believe it is because the idea is bad. There are other reasons, and that's what we're discussing. Because there's something that's stopping people to tap into that potential. And to be a faithful of a deity is not to preach it all the time. And it can only be "I can agree with that, I'm cool with your kind."

Also, there should be a MAJOR upheaval, intense reactions from many different figures. I could very imagine Father Kontos of Yeman in the Solar Shrine making a sending/public appearance, ranting against the Ward as they are spitting on the services rendered by yemanis. This is just an example. But we're what, two representatives of faiths in-game? Apart from Desir and Naamah, I don't remember seeing any other message from faithfuls. (Sorry to those I missed) What impression does that give? That every cult is weak, almost inexistant. What we see IG is not representive of the game world. Or else, there would be only 100-200 people living in the city. There is a lot we don't see that is still there, but concerning religion, it feels as if they don't exist. I can count around 12 faiths that can openly demonstrate their beliefs. Yet, after being outlawed, it's as if they all just shrugged. "Meh, whatever. Nobody portray us IG anyway."

Several points especially caught my attention, and I read through all the posts :
-Disinterest in polytheism
-Lack of deity lore/in-depth details
-No intrinsic benefit as it was in the Forgotten Realms
-Allied/linked deities
-No priest = Can't join/represent a faith
-NPCs asking you to meet faithful PCs
-Different gods for different circumstances
-King = interventionnist god, no reason to fear the wrath of other gods

...and many others that I haven't cited here, but I still consider interesting.

While the lack of details give the possibility to give an interpretation of it, the result is the other half of the community who aren't comfortable with that. If over time, each of them were to get a substantial amount of lore to better describe them, even if it is only a branch of the faith, (or the official principles) just with that, the religion aspect of the server would benefit from both groups of people. That can only be a good thing, because no side forces the other, yet both can do their thing, and feel inspired.

Since the path must still be traced for most of that aspect, whether it is a permanent or temporary change, it could be effectively helpful to see some alliances forged between the small gods of the city. The name says it : small gods. What the current movement of the Ward is doing is undermining the ONLY SOURCE OF FOLLOWERS  most of these powers have. If there is to be to physical manifestation of their power, it would seem only logical that new rules were established among them. And this can be interpreted differently than simply "Oi, these are tough times. Let's be friends and stir up shit". Some faiths can be related by family bonds. There can be an aspect of duality between two of them. One can be revealed to be an aspect of another one, like in the Forgotten Realms, where the elven goddess Aerdrie Faenya was in fact as aspect of Akadi. Spontaneously, I have a few examples :

The Sun Church : Past life bonds, as interpreted here - https://www.efupw.com/forums/index.php?topic=696826.msg719023#msg719023
Hundred Scrolls / Renunciation : The duality of mercy, redemption and change versus the consequence of past deeds.
Yevathax / The Timeless One : The duality of necromancy as a mean to reach goals, versus the pursuit of it for its sake only.

"Uniting" faiths like that, what does it do? It gives a character reasons to care more about other deities, and have basic knowledge about them. It adds relations between different cults. And in some cases, or under certain circumstances, it widens the possibility of natural allies ; As in, "we're not specifically friends, but we both have an interest on the same matters, and our deities interacted together at some point". Because right now, it's as if none of them ever did before, and this may give an impression of stagnation between the gods. Of course in the Forgotten Realms, it all seemed more lively. You knew these guys were going against your beliefs, would "conspire" against them, so you kinda freaked out when a flock of these followers came around.
Except obvious cases of clearly evil gods like Tchun, name one case like that.

I'd like to mention something that happened quite a few times, and did nothing for it. I never began "preaching" on my own, my character is more of a crusader type that supports his comrades with words of faith, than a preacher spreading it. (And I'm happy with the way I play it.) Funny thing, though, is that each and every time I did preach, I've been asked to, characters asked mine for either information or spiritual guidance. Most of the time, it wasn't directly to Yeman. It was to the Sun Church, as a whole. I could have said "no, I talk about Yeman only", but such occasions are rare, I wouldn't cast them aside. Besides, it's not as if every aspect of the sun was on really bad terms, they  all live together in the same temple. (Shrine Solar) So I went like this : "I do not represent these faiths, but I can give you a picture of how they are, in general." I think events like that strengthen the potential of linked deities, and prove it.

It created links. Reasons for people to care about 3-4 gods, and not just one in a sea of unexploited potential. Because let's be honest, even if I like this goldmine of potential, I doubt I'll portray each of every one of them. Nor will other players.


...and I could go on. I will stop for a while and let the natural flow of the discussion resume its course.