How to defeat the friendlyman (?)

Started by Damien, March 01, 2021, 05:20:32 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Damien

In light of recent events, from people using items that cast necromantic spells and people shrugging it off, to people summoning changelings and shrugging it off. I've decided to create this thread to discuss a trend which has been occurring for a while.

The trend being this strange, mob like mentality, where people group together, under some mass belief they just want to have fun, go off and quest with anything with legs,  and will collectively shot down and crush anyone not trying to be absorbed into the mass of neutrality.

As far as I can see it, there is more value to joining the group, as it gives you greater access to questing, the rings, and frankly, dm reward. 

I did think this was the route dms/players didn't want the setting to go, but I'm unsure really, so feel like a discussion is warranted. It is fine if this the case I suppose, but I mean I'm not a fan at all, doesn't fit my play style, but that is life.

Axioein

Well to be honest, its human nature. A player goes, I want my character to succeed and if I join x large group I have the best chance of that.

There is currently one major hub in the Peerage. The houses compete in the Peerage but in general most of the people in the Peerage will work together to some extent. The trifecta of Peerage / Ticker Square / Ponds use to balance this as the Peerage and Square factions typically competed. But with the Square gone due to IG events and most of the starter quests in the Peerage, that is where the majority of the population ends up. Pond life is a lot of fun, but it does not draw the majority of players.

In addition, there is a real cost to not joining the main questing groups. You are likely less well supplied, less likely to be a higher level,  and likely to have fewer allies. All that means your chances of surviving inter faction PvP conflict or larger DM events goes down hill. Working against another faction, especially a player powerful one, will almost certainly bring PvP conflict and players know that.

So you put this all together and you end up with people willing to group together. There are some players who are historically  good at succeeding outside of this trend, but that takes a certain amount of skill and knowledge.  Given limited play times and average skill / knowledge, human nature is what it is.

My two cents, I would like to see a return to a trifecta of three different power bases. Houses / Something / Ponds with that Something having starter quests and a faction or two to get behind. That being said, I dont think the current state is a bad one and the ongoing DM plots are really interesting. It does tend to produce some of the above mentioned behavior.

If you really dont like it as a player, I would offer a great chance to cause some fun IG. Make a hard core believer of the Triune and start challenging people to death duels who work with known necromancer supporters in the Peerage / etc. Will be hard but could be a lot of fun if you feel strongly about it.

Disorder

Quote from: Damien on March 01, 2021, 05:20:32 PM

The trend being this strange, mob like mentality, where people group together, under some mass belief they just want to have fun, go off and quest with anything with legs,  and will collectively shot down and crush anyone not trying to be absorbed into the mass of neutrality.


Different people perceive ic challenges differently. Some just want to go crush quests after their stressful day at work and type into dialogue box "laughs and lulz", rather than anything that would create hostility. Maybe I am digging too deep, but nwn persistent world servers are commonly a way to escape from annoying reality and dive into fantasy. Who wants they fantasy to end with negative emotions/frustration? That's my take on that. But doesn't mean that I disagree with you, there's just completely different point of view spread among nwn players.

Quote from: Damien on March 01, 2021, 05:20:32 PM
As far as I can see it, there is more value to joining the group, as it gives you greater access to questing, the rings, and frankly, dm reward. 

Can share my personal experience: tz and odd playing hours of a player is what prevents certain amount of  characters from finding like-minded pcs. So what those people do? They team up with anyone and everyone.

Jubek

As someone who's not around anymore these days, I can't give my opinion on the matter since I didn't see it, I'd only be speculating. However, on the following :

Quote"My two cents, I would like to see a return to a trifecta of three different power bases. Houses / Something / Ponds with that Something having starter quests and a faction or two to get behind. That being said, I dont think the current state is a bad one and the ongoing DM plots are really interesting. It does tend to produce some of the above mentioned behavior."

I think rivalry between houses IN the Peerage Ward is something that would work better. Because people cross paths in the same city, and you can roleplay the tension between the different factions. Having three different power bases...I've seen that last year. What happens is that since  "power base" folks don't like the other and has prejudices over them: They never meet and stay in their corner. At best, they cross paths in the dispensary area, or some place like that, glare and hiss at each other.

So have characters meet in the same area.

Of course, times, moods come and go in waves. Right now it is quite friendly in the Ward, we could say that the ghyl threat brings unity to the people, the same way (on an infinitely larger scale) people were sticking together in Sanctuary last chapter. Things might change later. Increased hostility between the Count's and King's men, for example. To have a house secretly work with the Ponds to sabotage another side's efforts would be a great example of including the other hub, in my perspective.

For me, the best memory I had of house rivalry was during the tournament : People were clearly picking sides, but it wasn't about murdering each other either. (Well, mostly...)

zerotje

Just force them to comply to the standards of intrigue and conflict by attacking them.

Ezpz.

parthenos

most people irl are neutral with nebulous beliefs and ideas

just drink alcohol or ignore them

KaedweniKnight

you're not wrong friendly man is kinda lame, characters should bring meaningful conflict and those that do should be rewarded.  Conflict derives Roleplay.  Also, a lot of roleplayers suffer from self insert sickness

Damien

More seriously though, how do we see about fixing this? As it currently stands it seems to just be eroding the setting. Retainers do not care so much about honour, or demi humans. I mean I'm watching a stream of a dwarf shift into a bear in front of 20 people (again), and no one cares.

It's becoming all a bit weird...

Maybe we need another tickeresque square..it had its flaws, but didn't it work better?

Random_White_Guy

I'd been avoiding this since I've got too much history of trying to do some big sweeping tl;dr post about proactivity and character obligation and standards and similar but i'll try and keep it short and sweet.

Honestly the culture has changed. The problem as I see it falls into 3 categories.

Quote1) PC factions have ghosted even more. I know people love to say there's so many options for DM factions and associations and ring crews but I firmly believe hub-adjacent PC factions are where the spark comes from. I'm not saying that all factions are bad or all PCs in all factions are bad but people in DM factions often times feel like there's an obligation to ride things out for a pending plot or etc. I know for certain the Druid plot to push into the rings felt heavily influenced by "Gotta ride this out to see end of plot can't leave DM/Ring crew hanging" from a lot of PCs. PC factions tend to feel more flash in the pan, big risk big reward, trying to shake the server etc. An association or faction PC dedicated to a plot is gonna ensure they arrive at that plot destination, and incidentally less risk/petty conflict.

So many minor houses, so many great houses, so many preludes, so many plot-adjacent assocs, so many Ring Crews. It really does just dilute the pool. Even though typically lately a lot of preludes have been fun and antagonistic, it means people are playing things with heavy assoc adjacent adjustments or DM plots or OOC obligations etc. It's not that they're less engaged, but when you're waiting for a big event next week you're less inclined to take a big risk today for the next DM plot, the next ring challenge, or etc.

So in the interim things just kinda... float along.

2) The best way to cruise control to DM loot/plot/Ring Running involvement feels like either Big Announced DM Event, PvP or OOC coordination Ringing. Again, this isn't always a bad thing but if your PC is either saving up for the big throw down or having to recover from the massive event or Bridge Duel or PvP Throwdown there's less emphasis on pursuit and more on recovery. The grind can be exhausting so after so much grinding I know for certain my feeling is usually "Well that's 5 hours of questing for the weekend i'm going to go RL".

Conversely if you're in a PVP arms race against someone your time spent IG is way more focused on "Must get back supplies must get back supplies" which means the temptation to cut corners and answer that sending from the PC you otherwise should hate, or don't interact with, or etc draws attention. I'm not saying its the DMs or even really the PCs fault at all but at the end of the day people want those big shiny prizes of progression. And if they risk all their means of getting anything done on those prizes or challenges or Big Ring Fights or etc, focus shifts towards getting back to "Comfort" to take that risk. So the feeling is just - float along, get those quests in, get those supplies back, do whatever you can to be ready for next time.

Personally I loved trying to take out a PC surrounded by high level friends, but even i'm guilty of "Shit we're doing X ring next week, i'll hop on this train for some more supply".

So we just float along.

3) Self-imposed limitations.

These seem a lot less common these days from an RP perspective. Similar to what Griff mentioned about changelings and non humans the Peerage forced that so PCs didn't have to, and without that enforcement I feel like PCs are just kinda floating along. I'm not saying it's bad, i'm just saying it's culturally different, than EFU is used to. I've long said if PCs drew lines in the sand EFU would be a better place, but you can't really see what people's lines are or force them.

People turning down quest trains because X showed up, people having PCs they just hate the face of, PCs who stand for weird, esoteric principles which may be unpopular but interesting, etc. It feels like these all just kinda went by the wayside in favor of Money, Supplies, Success.

So again more just floating along.

So to TL;DR

- We have PCs floating along awaiting things tied to DM events or PC crews, which means less PCs flipping tables short term, which puts a lot of pressure on DMs or Leadership PCs to wow things and take proactive first steps while most go along for the ride.
- We have a lot of people hoarding acorns and when they get used focused on replenishing that big stack of potions to feel safe to take big risks in exchange for DM Looties or PvP or Ring challenge, which leads to corner cutting to get supplies back. "I'm not political i'm a ring runner", "I've got a big duel coming up I need this quest even if the dwarf is coming", "He's a changeling but he's one of the good ones and wants to help".
- With less self imposed limitations or philosophical differences seem to be out the window so it's a grab bag of get what you can while you can however you can.

Some people say it's cowardly, some say it's friendlymen, some say it's too OOC self involved, some say it's isolation cliques, some people say it's people refusing to take a stand, others say it's opportunism to rockstar on big DM events and get more DM loot.

But that's the best way I can try and put a bead on why it feels like everything has shifted so fast that way.

So when you have so many PCs self involved, when something sparks enough to motivate people and they DO get involved -

It feels way too one sided / the mob gearing up / friendlymen assemble.
[11:23 PM] Howlando: Feel free LealWG
[11:23 PM] Howlando: I'll give you a high five + fist bump tip

[1:34 AM] BigOrcMan: RwG, a moment on the lips, forever on the hips

Poolson

Quote from: Damien on March 07, 2021, 09:34:07 AM
demi humans.

I wanted to touch on this because there is some room for flexibility, here.

Given that all of Ticker Square's population just merged with the Peerage Ward, and that humans from it can have their services on retainership to a noble house, slight culture shift can happen when people of a different disposition occupy positions or titles of power.

It's not a dead, done deal, for sure. Anyone can still play a character of the Peerage Ward who has a loathsome opinion of non-humans or commonfolk/ticker people and I'm sure someone would be more than happy to touch on that eventually.

But, in summary, what I'm trying to say is; it's not that out of the norm for a slight tone shift in the Peerage, if the people who occupy the Peerage are more than just an isolated community.

parthenos

i wrote a long winded response to this thread the other day in a moment of insanity, but i thought better. vladislav 'gnome-friend' orza quested hard with the demi-humans, and everyone in this thread groups for exp/supply. sage and lock this thread already ffs