The MMOisation of EFU

[Ladocicea]

Over the past couple of months I've observed an increase in the following:

• Taking only 1 level of rogue, barbarian, bard or sorcerer in a manner that is extremely convenient for your build. While this is not against the rules it is cheese, especially if there is NO conceptual rationalisation for doing this, and with astounding regularity (every single case) I have found that there is no discernible IC reason for doing so.


• Obtaining level 7 under 24 hours, and level 8 shortly thereafter (yes, it happens).


• Playing the same character/build over and over, or having alts with the same build as your main, with no discernible difference in concept or character or the manner in which you roleplay them. This also ties in with groups of OOC friends whose many different PCs all somehow know each other ICly and help one another out.


• Doing the same quest every reset/tirelessly grinding with no real purpose.


• While I've not personally witnessed this one, I'm reliably informed that people now say "Let's do ". e.g. "Let's do Shagga", in character. This also ties in with the increasingly brazen manner in which people organise quest parties ICly, with tanks telling mages what spells to prepare, as if they're some arcane genius themselves, when they usually have stats as mentioned below, which I definitely have witnessed.


• Creating characters with 8 INT, 8 WIS and 8 CHA (yes, this happens), and then not roleplaying those stats in a satisfactory manner.

Now, I'm more than happy to entertain the idea that certain aspects of the server have contributed to encouraging this behaviour.

Perhaps the drop in activity from the DM team as a whole has given you all less meaningful stuff to do and so you resort to grinding quests. I am launching a server-wide plot shortly to try to remedy this.

Perhaps it's because you want to get ahead of the harsh death penalty and you get a blinkered with the objective of beating it.

Perhaps it's because PvP has become overly competitive and you want to insulate yourself against losing your PC to someone else who decided to give themselves 2 more STR rather than 2 more CHA on their fighter.

Whatever has caused it, it has to stop. If anyone has any insight into why this is happening, please do let me know, especially if you have solutions for it.

If not, then it must be down to player choice, in which case I would like everyone to choose to stop doing this.

Thanks.

[manyscruples]

Taking only 1 level of rogue, barbarian, bard or sorcerer in a manner that is extremely convenient for your build. While this is not against the rules it is cheese, especially if there is NO conceptual rationalisation for doing this, and with astounding regularity (every single case) I have found that there is no discernible IC reason for doing so.

I can't think of any good builds that only use only one level of rogue, barbarian, bard, or sorcerer.  It might infer a few minor benefits, but it doesn't pay off in the long term.   Two rogue/ranger and Two rogue/fighter or 1-2 fighter/bard are fairly common "power" builds but these are easily justifiable in game.  

Obtaining level 7 under 24 hours, and level 8 shortly thereafter (yes, it happens).

This would require a great deal of time and a sturdy, well rounded group.  If people are doing it to nefarious ends, I can see the problem.  Otherwise people have lives outside of the game and sometimes need to jumpstart their guys when they've the time to do it.  Even if that means binging for 8 hours straight.  

Playing the same character/build over and over, or having alts with the same build as your main, with no discernible difference in concept or character or the manner in which you roleplay them. This also ties in with groups of OOC friends whose many different PCs all somehow know each other ICly and help one another out.

Some people have specific playing styles and like how one build feels.  As for OOC ties, yeah that's lame.  But if it's a group concept that started out together, I don't see how this is a problem.

Doing the same quest every reset/tirelessly grinding with no real purpose.

This is just part of the game.  There really isn't much else to do in the off-hours.  I suppose people can just not play, but that really doesn't help anything?  There's always the possibility of something going wrong and the party folds, having to restart.  Can be solved by adding more randomness to scripted quests.  

While I've not personally witnessed this one, I'm reliably informed that people now say "Let's do ". e.g. "Let's do Shagga", in character. This also ties in with the increasingly brazen manner in which people organise quest parties ICly, with tanks telling mages what spells to prepare, as if they're some arcane genius themselves, when they usually have stats as mentioned below, which I definitely have witnessed.

Some times these "tanks" have learned the nature of a few spells through having adventured in the past.  But if it were say, a 8 wisdom, 8 int half-orc - then yes, that's definitely something they shouldn't be doing irregardless.

Creating characters with 8 INT, 8 WIS and 8 CHA (yes, this happens), and then not roleplaying those stats in a satisfactory manner.

In the past DMs have appropriately punished these sorts of characters.  Someone with 8 charisma isn't going to go far in a faction.  Someone with low wisdom might have to make a roll in a quest, then die horribly when they fail.  These sorts of things sort themselves out in the long term.  When people realize that, they'll stop.

[Hound]

I can't think of any good builds that only use only one level of rogue, barbarian, bard, or sorcerer.  It might infer a few minor benefits, but it doesn't pay off in the long term.   Two rogue/ranger and Two rogue/fighter or 1-2 fighter/bard are fairly common "power" builds but these are easily justifiable in game.

Roguebarian, Rogue/fighter, Bardarian, Barbaranger, Bardranger, the list goes on. All powerful builds, which I won't go into in detail since I think it'd be inimical to the point of this thread.

This would require a great deal of time and a sturdy, well rounded group.  If people are doing it to nefarious ends, I can see the problem.  Otherwise people have lives outside of the game and sometimes need to jumpstart their guys when they've the time to do it.  Even if that means binging for 8 hours straight.  

Some people have specific playing styles and like how one build feels.  As for OOC ties, yeah that's lame.  But if it's a group concept that started out together, I don't see how this is a problem.

I don't think the identicality of the builds is the issue. It's the identicality of the personalities. Without naming any names, I can definitely concur there are people out there who send out wave after wave of same-faced alts that are more or less the same person under a different fore and surname.

This is just part of the game.  There really isn't much else to do in the off-hours.  I suppose people can just not play, but that really doesn't help anything?  There's always the possibility of something going wrong and the party folds, having to restart.  Can be solved by adding more randomness to scripted quests.

It depends on your class. Alchemists, for example, have loads to do during the off-hours. Perhaps it might be worth introducing something similar for other classes to do? Metallurgy or something, where smiths use different recipes to try and create good equipment or useful items.

Some times these "tanks" have learned the nature of a few spells through having adventured in the past.  But if it were say, a 8 wisdom, 8 int half-orc - then yes, that's definitely something they shouldn't be doing irregardless.

This is kind of ridiculous, in my opinion. No sorcerer is the same, and wizards take literally years upon years of difficult, tasking and esoteric study to understand the nature of the forces with which they deal. I appreciate many wizards underplay this fact and cheapen their own sense of expertise, but most warriors in this regard are just saying "Mage ready strength for me", or something along such lines, instead of at least trying to make it interesting - or even prompting the mage to provide his own 'theme' or 'flair' on the spell by inquiring as to what he can do to help the group. It's little things like this that improve the server's atmosphere tremendously.

In the past DMs have appropriately punished these sorts of characters.  Someone with 8 charisma isn't going to go far in a faction.  Someone with low wisdom might have to make a roll in a quest, then die horribly when they fail.  These sorts of things sort themselves out in the long term.  When people realize that, they'll stop.

Not so much recently from my point of view. I'm of the line of thinking that a sterner hand will lead to better results, but that's just me.

DMs should bear in mind that rewarding such players, regardless of the specific reason for doing so at the time, who conduct said behaviour will only be encouraged to perpetuate it through such accolades.

[Letsplayforfun]

Please note we're not asking you if you believe this is happening or not, but telling you to please slow down on the MMO and lack of RP that we see is happening.

If you have any ideas why this may be happening nowadays more than before, feel free to give us your opinion.

[Gear Head]

I feel the answer is fairly simple. Those PCs and players who are playing interesting, involving, and fun PCs over those who are simply "gaming" aren't being rewarded like they have been in the past. As a result those gaming are the ones reaping the scripted rewards of the module, while those who are not lag behind.

Finding ways to reward those PCs and players who are doing it right will cause those who are gaming the mechanics to look up and realize that if they want the true rewards EfU brings (whether that's loot, attention, plots - the big one, or simply some for of recognition for their character) they will need to do more than just hunt around for stuff and XPs through the scripted systems.

[PanamaLane]

If you want an honest opinion, I think its because our player base is getting "younger". There are no games out there like efu, the closest experience is PnP D&D which I don't know how many players have actually done.

Players have been "trained" from other games like WoW or other MMO's to do these kind of things because they work. They work in EFU as well, as suddenly a powerful build with loads of supply wins that key PvP and is further rewarded with fame or more supply.

I think its really on the DM's here. Find these behaviors and have an OOC discussion with those players on a personal basis through pms, or IG ports to the DM area. They need to be taught that EFU is not an MMO by the people in charge. Because when they are not, all the things you mention, are only rewarded IG when there is no supervision.

Edit: Also agree with Gear Head. Rewarding players who put additional challenges on themselves and play out their weaknesses can put them in a position to win when it counts. Otherwise, weaknesses simply make you weaker then the other guy.

[Random_White_Guy]

I feel like there's a few factors contributing to this. First though I think every PC on EFU needs to be familiarized with Ths Howland Post which was raised on #EFU just now this morning . As far as a few things I've noticed:

A) [indent]From the PC and DM plot perspective I can say without doubt that over the last 4-5 months there's been a huge upswing in keeping plots close to the vest. DM faction PCss used to regularly pursue adventurers for recruitment, minor factional aid, and pull people away from the adventurer life. Equally there was more emphasis on PC factions pushing to recruit adventurers and make moves and ultimately lure people away from the adventurer life.

I would love to get "We're making moves, don't worry ;)" banished from the EFU vocabulary because I always see this response when I ask people OOCly what their PC is up to, what they're doing, what plots they are pushing, and similar. It creates two castes.

The Involved PC Schemers caste and the unaffiliated adventurers cast. And if people aren't involved in plots they don't have so much to do and they're just gonna end up questing and viewing EFU as more of an MMO. If people don't OOCly have even a hint of what is going on they can't try to find those factions and get involved and if ICly every faction is trying to be like the illuminati and top-secret with their plots then there's a huge number of PCs who are left out and just not involved in the best part of the EFU experience.[/indent]

B)[indent]In regards to the EFUR arms race that is levels there's been a huge boost in "I need level 8 before I can do x" feeling by many people depending upon the concept in question.  Questing was always the best way to get XP on EFU but now it's -really- the best way. There's been encounters where DMs drop 150, 200, even down to 50 XP for good RP for pretty complicated events or consistent character play while questing nets you 500, 1000, 2000  XP depending upon your level and quest for one quest. String them together and you've got heaps of XP swiftly. A steady XP wage would just create a more relaxed atmosphere in my opinion and remove the nessecity.

Your post though Lado about expanding that has me optimistic if it can be pursued steadily but not all PCs at all times can be seen for their good XP and I'd rather err on the side of reward everyone than spoil the batch for a few rotten eggs. It can't be denied that the beginning rush of a new character is ignored on almost every level by PCs as an MMO style grind. There's just not much RP. Log in, take portal, talk to ring-giver, HoG, Spellguard, Workmill, etc. etc. etc. then grind solo quests that no one ever takes extra people with. Kill 2-3 hours to get level 5 ASAP.

Frankly I'd be more open to a Character Advancement expansion Myconid type of "Steady XP to level 6" or further.

Since we have the Warrior Lockers/Scout's Bag/etc. I'd almost think matters would improve if you had an option to start at Level 6 with one of those if people are grinding up to level 7/8 so quickly anyway. It would help concepts for bandits, learned adventurers, and etc. hit the ground running at a decent level with supplies where Questing isn't the dominant focus of the PC to "Catch up" with the rest of EFU.[/indent]

C)[indent]Without being too disparaging I'm really looking forward to your server wide plot because there has been an almost obscene emphasis on DM efforts that seem to focus solely on App-only, unique, prelude-based factions with loads of perks. In the last X number of month's theres The Eyeball Cult, Talir's Rot Plot, D_I's dwarves, D_I's current plot, Nuke's Hobgoblins, Caster's Ruby Plot started with a group. There may have even been a few I've missed.

This was just in a span of a last few months and there's just not been what I like to call traditional EFU DM Plots. The kind of things that may make the Spellguard and Society quarrel on a Political or potential PvP between the Red and the Black Guild on levels like the Conclave and Stygians did in EFU:A or the Seekers and Spellguard did in EFU:1 or even to a lesser degree the Caermynn and Aberdeen in EFU:M.

When DM factions aren't competing, aren't making big moves, etc. there's a contribution to the point of ad nauseum of "We aren't foes but we're going to be terse unless there's a one off DM quest then we'll team up to go investigate that weird noise in the in-between".[/indent]

There's just things on both PC and DM side that can be fixed. PCs need to start pushing higher standards of interaction and making up PC plots beyond "I'm bored lets quest", pushing things not just for the sake of "What's best for them', and considering that their play can influence the community.

[I love cats]

Honestly I have been saying this in IRC quite a few times that the absurd MMO mentality is there. To the point someone  ICLY pressuring me to break an OOC rule about resting and returning to a quest in the name of XPS and Golds. I was glad a certain DM saw this going on and stopped it from happening. Because it was hard for me to IC come up with an excuse to not do it.  



Also I have seen quite a few chars that just quest and pursue no other alternative character goals. Here is my advice on how to change PCS and player conduct. As well as to quite honestly get people with an MMO mindset out of the server. Also while I think OOC talking about mechanics is healthy I am sick of people sending me tells about a quest and its mechanics. Or even "OH THAT ONES TOO HARD!"  

I despise MMORPGS and feel steps need to be taken to prevent the server from becoming this.  Here is some suggestions that come to mind.


1 Get rid of non app associations.

Nothing devalues factions more than having them automated and open to outright absurd concepts. I have seen plenty of PCS in the Watch and Auxilary that seemed to only be pursuing scripted quests way more than the goals of that faction/spreading propaganda. Also the Wayfinders with their lack of an actual faction goal besides "exploring" facilitated this problem and made it worse. I say return EFU's factions into all being app only. This has contributed to lame concepts in associations that do nothing but quest.  I feel this has set a bad example to plenty of new PCS.

2 Outright set a precedent and punish PCS with lame builds/ask them to justify it. Hell even retire PCS that are clearly not being played properly. I have also seen Clerics buff and quest while never ever preaching or doing anything towards their god's dogma.

3 Have NPCS not afraid to beat up characters/suspend pay. I remember when in the Watch on EFU 1 Azzam would basically make scary death threats and threats to fire people when criminals were making fools of the Watch. J

4 Harsh environment....Dms need to encourage FD more than discourage it especially when PCS are being absurd when subdued. Villain pcs should kill people and become more scary/taken more seriously.  

5 More DM activity.

6 New factions

I feel like the majority of factions all have a very lawful/pro authority feel. Even the only Lower faction is a lawful group of Hoarans. I say add a gangster faction. I feel a Ledskir/Tigereye faction needs to shake things up once more in Lower.

7 Insert new rules against your following points and against lame build concepts.

[Bouquet of Roses]

I disagree with the point of DM's having to reward individually chosen "flaws" or "weaknesses". And I tend to have -plenty- of those.

I haven't been playing all that much, this past couple of months, so I'm hardly the expert voice on these matters. But if it truly is such a big concern- I think both Lado and RWG get the message across pretty well.
In the end- It's up to the players, and their own sense of integrity.
DMs can punish everyone they come across- But barring less-than-amazingly-high activity, that's likely to still leave out a good deal of them. So that's not -really- a viable option.
That's not to say DMs -shouldn't- take action, if they feel like it, but personally, I'd much rather their efforts were directed towards things they enjoy, rather than being forced to play "RP Police".

This said- I've been guilty of some few of those points. Still am, I suppose. I have a serious weaknesses for stealthy manipulators, as some of you may have noticed, and it rarely comes as a surprise when they turn out to be Sharran, too.
That's just a combination I -thoroughly- enjoy. And, honestly, wasn't seriously aware I was repeating so closely, untill it was brought to my attention.
After that, I struggled to find a new concept. Something -different-.
And it kept me away for a while.
I get that repetition is bad, but like in my case, it's just something you have to get out of your system.
And if the characters go on to do "good" things, push some plots, start some intrigue, change up the server abit, is it really such a bad thing?

I also tend to solo-rush the low-level quests, whenever I can. Reason for that is far simpler, though- I really, -really- enjoy them. With other players, without- It doesn't really matter. I'm not talking about the delivery quests, obviously- But some of them are -fun-, to me, at least, and I look forward to running them. To seeing what treasures I might find amongst the garbage. Literally, in some cases.

On my current PC, however, it's not -just- because of that, but also a touch of idiocy on my own part, having left two rather core feats to the concept, to be grabbed at level 6.
I still don't avoid RP or interactions- But it doesn't feel right actively seeking it out, either, before the concepts in it's right place.
That said, I'm usually an opponent to things like that. And I kind'a hate that I've made that mistake, to the point of having seriously considered starting over.
Then I'd have to save up for that sweet, sweet custom made fullplate again, though.

I guess my point is- I think Lado's got it right. If players are knowingly doing these things, the best thing would be for them to just stop. And I'm a firm believer in asking nicely, before introducing steps towards a heavily policed server.
Nor do I think any "weak" build should ever have the right to "assume" they'll be rewarded for being weaker. Not by DMs, at least. I've found the experience itself to be pretty fun. To find ways other than mechanical power to "win". And highly rewarding, in itself.

We all make mistakes, and sometimes we don't realise we're making them.
Enlighten, show, lead by example- Or as RWG likes to say- Be the Change you want to see on EfU.

Those are just my two cents.

[Ironside]

At the risk of sounding blunt/rude/crass I don't think any one aspect of EfU is responsible for this; rather it is primarily a player issue.  

To put it really simply, there has been an influx of new players on the server in the last nine months or so that simply don't seem to "get" EfU.  

Grinding up to high levels by smashing quests and then idling around being friends to all (save those PCs who upset the status quo) and mobbing together in a ridiculous group of like - Watchers, Auxiliary, and Ordinants ready to "fight the other guys".  There is this really toxic mindset that we need to all band together and "win" efu as this cohesive and conflict-less friendly mass triumphing over NPC threats.

Players downright refusing conflict when it doesn't go their way or they don't have the immediate advantage, etc.  Players just generally being afraid to make "big plays" IC'ly out of OOC fear of loss or the conflict itself being seen as "bad".

There is probably some merit to the idea that more DM activity in Sanctuary would help curtail this and aid in re-aligning the focus of these newer players toward interesting and dynamic role-play-oriented play-styles, but it has become increasingly clear to me as a player that some players will just always do this.

(It's of course possible/probable that I may not have a  complete understanding of the state of efu simply by virtue of being a  player and not seeing everything that goes on)

[Faux News]

Just have an agenda, and push it from day one. That's really all that your average PC needs to 'improve.' It'd give them something more to do than just crush quests mindlessly. The DMs will eventually recognize your efforts and reward you, but moreso the bigger reward itself is that you're contributing to the server climate as a whole.

One of my favorite examples was Aracknar Blackgem. That dude was just a really greedy dwarf from day one. And the longer he went on, the greedier he got. His agenda was getting rich and opening his own tavern to compete with the House of Heroes.

He stuck on that Agenda, and when Sanctuary wouldn't let him rent a building to open his own tavern, he opened it in the Inbetween instead and started interacting with Lower a lot more. Interacting with Lower gave him more opportunities to be a criminal, which lead to him getting richer and richer.

Eventually he became a hated enemy and outlaw. All with that one simple goal!

[Apocryphal Misconceptions]

@ Ironside. I think he's hit the mark.

Unfortunately, I see a lot of this. It might be that a lot of characters do not want to interact with my character Duke Laverne. It feels like the general attitude of characters in Sanctuary has been to stay logged on for quests and exciting events. Chatting and other forms of RP are very scarce meanwhile in the Square. Making conversation, and not for lack of trying, has proven difficult.

One thing that bothers me a lot is that people use the dreaded Town Square to AFK. If I see a potentially AFK player(s) who stand still and say nothing, I instantly feel discouraged to interact.

--

We're lacking a healthy dose of faction conflict. All factions these days seem to be each other's buddies. If this could somehow change then I think it'd be for the better. Some healthy aggression between factions has led to a lot of good things in the past. Nowadays, it feels a lot harder to mobilize these kind of initiatives.

--

Other than that, it is all up to the players. We have to realize our place in the server. Things are happening. Or people are trying to, anyway. I know this from first hand interaction. The 'quest to success' mindset deteriorates from this magnificent server.

[VanillaPudding]

http://www.efupw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98316

 I detailed a few notable issues here that bring this type of play into the frontlines of EFU, but there are some other issues obviously. At some point along the way since I was last playing in EFU:M and returned here, I have noticed that -

- "Spice" has become punishment rather than reward. Often times there is zero role-play or interaction from the DM, so perhaps they are just following the set example? (why waste time and energy on it at this point?)

- Quest rewards have diminished greatly, and thus people spam them to simply survive

- Item sets were put in game and, for the most part, drop on a singular quest. The result is obvious

- There are large dead zones of "anything to do" besides take part in what is available, thus scripted content becomes the prominent choice.

- Overall, it is not innately bad to play with your friends and people you share a timezone with, but it is horribly bad to see it done in the way it is so often in this setting. You mentioned why for the most part, and I have seen it as a player many times over. The lack of these groups to conflict with one another  internally is massively annoying to someone like myself that tries to play antagonists all he time, and I feel like the "mob" has grown into something less of an IRC joke and more into something tangible and real.

Players need to overall focus more on establishing agendas (with your clique friends is just fine) and pushing them, not just rolling along in the cart behind the other group and them behind the first like some sort of dull train ride. On the flip side, these very people the thread creator mentions also appear to be, from what I can view rarely, the ones carrying around pieces of DM loot.

[Blue41]

- Overall, it is not innately bad to play with your friends and people you share a timezone with, but it is horribly bad to see it done in the way it is so often in this setting. You mentioned why for the most part, and I have seen it as a player many times over. The lack of these groups to conflict with one another  internally is massively annoying to someone like myself that tries to play antagonists all he time, and I feel like the "mob" has grown into something less of an IRC joke and more into something tangible and real.

Players need to overall focus more on establishing agendas (with your clique friends is just fine) and pushing them, not just rolling along in the cart behind the other group and them behind the first like some sort of dull train ride. On the flip side, these very people the thread creator mentions also appear to be, from what I can view rarely, the ones carrying around pieces of DM loot.

This part stuck out to me and to kind of spin-off this point:

Having created and being involved with a few PC factions since EFU:R has begun, it seems to me like recruitment for factions has become less of a goal to be achieved ICly compared to OOCly. PC's open to being recruited to the Watchers, or the Society, or the Harbingers or whatever based on how things proceed for them in-game seem to be a rarity- instead you see fully-formed PC groups pop up overnight as an idea is formed, a clique is brought on board and it is put into action. And there's nothing wrong with reaching out to people you enjoy playing with about your cool idea for what you can bring to efu, but those groups also tend to not draw in any new players, because everyone else around them has also OOCly decided that they either will be in a faction or not- and if they do, it's not yours.

There is a tangible bonus to being one of the unaffiliated adventurers that Upper always has in spades- you can sell to/quest with/follow whomever you wish and reap the benefits without having to deal with any of the conflict that membership in a faction would bring you. And if there's enough people around that decide that they want to avoid internal or external conflict and just want to rake in the benefits, you can OOCly approach them and form a mercenary company or adventuring group. And for the few people who are open to being ICly recruited, given a choice between a PC faction abundant with supplies/gold and a DM faction struggling to maintain a presence, which is more attractive?

Maybe this has always been happening and it's taken the server becoming a little bit smaller than before for me to really notice it- if so, it's to EFU's detriment. DM factions should always be filling up, because when they didn't, it was usually their time to go.

[Pigadig]

I'm probably not a good person to be commenting on this topic but:

The tone of this thread is really really really harsh towards the newer players we've had. Perhaps tone it down a bit, considering that there were months of this chapter before the influx when nobody was online, so nobody was logging in, which meant nobody was achieving anything, etc, etc.